I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, WHAT WILL THE BIDEN-HARRIS ADMINISTRATION LOOK LIKE?

DESPITE ROADBLOCKS THROWN UP BY PRESIDENT TRUMP, SOME CONTINUING LAWSUITS AND NO OFFICIAL TRANSITION SUPPORT, PRESIDENT-ELECT JOE BIDEN IS PREPARING TO TAKE OFFICE IN JANUARY.

DATA FROM THE TRANSITION TEAM SHOWS 46 PERCENT OF THE STAFF ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR, 52 PERCENT ARE WOMEN, AND 53 PERCENT OF THE SENIOR STAFF ARE WOMEN.

WITH US TODAY ARE LATIFA LYLES, A VICE PRESIDENT AT TIMES UP; RINA SHAH, FOUNDER OF REPUBLICAN WOMEN FOR BIDEN; TIANA LOWE OF THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER; AND FORMER JUDGE AND FEDERAL PROSECUTOR DEBRA CARNAHAN.

ALL RIGHT.

LET'S START WITH YOU, LATIFA LYLES, FORMER HEAD OF THE WOMEN'S BUREAU OF THE LABOR DEPARTMENT UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA AND SEVERAL OTHER TITLES NOW WITH TIMES UP.

BUT WILL PRESIDENT BIDENS CABINET LOOK MORE LIKE AMERICA THAN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CABINET DID?

>> Latifa Lyles: WELL, I THINK ANYONE WILL SAY THAT THERE WILL BE NO COMPARISON COMPARED TO THE CURRENT PRESIDENT.

THE BIDEN-HARRIS ADMINISTRATION WILL BE THE MOST DIVERSE ADMINISTRATION IN THE HISTORY, AND I AM CONFIDENT OF THAT.

AND I THINK THAT THE MESSAGE THAT THE CAMPAIGN SENT AND THE MESSAGE THAT NOW BIDEN ELECTED SENDING IS THAT WE NEED IN ADMINISTRATION, LEADERSHIP POSITIONS WHICH MEANS GIRLS AND BOYS ACROSS THE NATION WILL SEE AND LEARN FROM A NEW GENERATION OF WOMEN LEADERS IN PARTICULAR, IT'S GOING TO CHANGE OUR CULTURE, NOT JUST IN DIVERSITY AND REPRESENTATION, BUT IN THOUGHT, AND WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE AS WE MOVE FORWARD ON POLICIES TO MOVE OUR COUNTRY AHEAD?

>> Bonnie: SO WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU, RINA, IS THE FOUNDER OF A REPUBLICAN WOMEN FOR BIDEN?

IS THAT A GOOD THING THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE MORE WOMEN AND MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR, OR IS IT A TURNOFF TO THE VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP WHO JOE BIDEN SAID HE WOULD TRY TO, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD BE -- THE WHOLE COUNTRY'S PRESIDENT, NOT JUST THE RED STATES OR THE BLUE STATE ' PRESIDENT?

>> Rina Shah: CERTAINLY FORMER VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN AND NOW PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS AN UPHILL BATTLE AHEAD OF HIM.

THE BIDEN HARRIS ADMINISTRATION SEEKS TO UNIFY, AS THEY'VE BEEN TELLING US FOR SO MANY WEEKS.

AND THIS IS NOT AN EASY TASK TO UNDERTAKE ON DAY ONE WHEN SOME 72 MILLION OF MY FELLOW AMERICANS VOTED FOR THIS PRESIDENT TO BE REELECTED, PRESIDENT TRUMP TO BE REELECTED.

SO THE REALITY IS IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE WE CAN LOOK AT THE POSITIVE.

AND THE POSITIVE IS THAT BIDEN IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS NEVER CHANGED HIS TONE.

HE'S BEEN VERY CONSISTENT.

AM REMINDED OF AN OP-ED THAT HE WROTE IN WHICH HE SAID -- [LOST AUDIO] -- CABINET, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE OUR LEADERSHIP, OUR INSTITUTIONS ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE AMERICA.

SO I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR REFLECTIVE REPRESENTATION.

THAT'S NOT A PARTISAN THING TO WANT BED.

IS A LONGTIME ASSOCIATE DOUBLE CONSERVATIVE, I ALWAYS WANT THE MOST QUALIFIED PERSON VERSUS SOMEONE BEING HANDPICKED FOR THEIR ETHNICITY OR GENDER.

LOOK, MORE TRANSITION TEAM ANNOUNCEMENTS ARE COMING SOON.

BUT ONE THING WE KNOW FOR SURE IS THIS IS THE TRANSITION TEAM, THIS IS -- THAT LOOKS FAR DIFFERENT THAN TRUMP'S.

46% OF BIDEN'S TRANSITION TEAM ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR, 41% OF A SENIOR STAFFER PEOPLE ARE COLOR.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT TRUMP, LOOK, HIS CABINET WAS MORE WHITE AND MORE MALE THAN ANY CABINET AND ALMOST 40 YEARS.

ONLY 25% OF SENIOR STAFF ON TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN WERE PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO THOSE NUMBERS WERE REALLY DISMAL.

AND AGAIN, WE'RE NOT REFLECTIVE OF THIS BEAUTIFUL QUILT WE HAVE OUT HERE, THE TAPESTRY WE WILL WIN IN THIS COUNTRY OF PEOPLE OF DIVERSE BACKGROUNDS AND EXPERIENCES.

>> Bonnie: T ANNA, YOUR THOUGHTS?

IS THAT GOING TO APPEAL -- IS BIDENS CABINET SELECTION -- WE HEARD AS OF THIS TAPING THE DEBORAH HOLLAND, WHO WAS JUST ELECTED AS A DEMOCRAT FROM NEW MEXICO TO THE HOUSE, IS A STRONG CANDIDATE FOR INTERIOR.

WE DON'T KNOW YET AS OF THIS TAPING ABOUT TREASURY OR DEFENSE OR STATE, WHICH OF COURSE ARE THE THREE MOST IMPORTANT, MOST POWERFUL POSITIONS.

AND HOLLAND, BY THE WAY, WOULD MAKE HISTORY AS THE FIRST NATIVE AMERICAN AND THE FIRST WOMAN AND COMBINATION THEREOF TO RUN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT.

>> Tiana Lowe: SO JUST AS AN ASIDE, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW AS WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT DIVERSITY, AND EVERYTHING WILL GEOBEE PICK UP IN THE HOUSE WENT TO OTHER WOMAN, PERSON OF COLOR, OR A VETERAN.

AND ALSO, WE SAW -- I MEAN, THE ONLY REASON WHY TRUMP WAS WITHIN REACHING DISTANCE OF THE PRESIDENCY WAS LARGER BECAUSE GAINS AMONG LATINO MEN.

AS IT TURNS OUT, THE MESSAGING AGAINST SOCIALISM RELATED WORK IN SOUTH FLORIDA.

WITH REGARDS TO HOLLAND, THAT MAKES OBVIOUS SENSE, GIVEN THE NATURE OF THE ROLE OF THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF OUR JURISDICTION OVER NATIVE TERRITORIES IN NEED OF SOVEREIGNTY.

WITH REGARDS TO DIVERSITY, JOE BIDEN HASN'T JUST SIGNALED TO ETHICALLY CHECK OFF THE DEMOGRAPHICS BOXES KIND OF SALE DIVERSITY, BUT ALSO IDEOLOGICAL DIVERSITY.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE CINDY McCAIN ON HIS TRANSITION TEAM, HE HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE WANTS TO BE A LEGISLATOR, HE ALWAYS LIKED GOING TO CONGRESS, PROFESSOR OBAMA WOULD GO TO THE HILL AND POCKETED 58 FOUR PEOPLE FOR HOURS, GET NOTHING DOWN, SEND JOE DOWN THERE IN 15 MINUTES A DEAL IS DONE.

SO TO THIS DAY, I'M STILL HEARING CONSERVATIVES LIKE TED CRUZ SAYING NICE THINGS ABOUT JOE BIDEN.

THEY ALL LIKE HIM ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.

SO, YEAH, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THERE ARE CERTAIN NOMINATIONS THAT HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO TERRIFY I THINK MOST CONSERVATIVES.

I THINK NO ONE LIKES, YOU KNOW, A -- >> Bonnie: SUSAN RICE AS SECRETARY OF STATE, I THINK THEY ARE AFRAID OF HER.

>> Tiana Lowe: THAT WILL NOT GO THROUGH, ESPECIALLY IF REPUBLICANS HOLD THE SENATE SEAT, SECURING, YOU KNOW, A MAJORITY THAT WILL NOT REQUIRE OR NOT ALLOW KAMALA HARRIS TO DO -- TO BREAK THE TIE.

BUT IN SOME PLACES, THERE'S A BIT OF PROMISE.

HE'S TALKING ABOUT MAYBE HAVING MEG WHITMAN ON HIS -- IN HIS CABINET, AND SHE WAS A REPUBLICAN NOMINEE FOR GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA.

I WOULD SAY REPUBLICANS SHOULDN'T WASTE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, WE CAN FINALLY HAVE INFRASTRUCTURE WEEK WITH A PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IN THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS, BECAUSE IF THERE'S ONE THING EVERYONE IN WASHINGTON AGREES IT'S GREAT TO SPEND TAXPAYER MONEY, WHILE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF BIPARTISAN DEBT.

UM, BUT YOU KNOW, SUNNY SIDE UP, WE'LL SEE.

>> Bonnie: AND YOUR THOUGHTS?

YOU HAVE BEEN WELL BEHIND-THE-SCENES, DEBORAH, WORKING WITH YOUR HUSBAND WHO WAS A MEMBER OF CONGRESS FOR MISSOURI, WORKING IN TRANSITIONS BEFORE.

ARE YOU GOING TO WORK ON THIS ONE?

HAD HE EXPECTED TO BE DIFFERENT?

>> Debra Carnahan: YEAH.

THERE ARE A LOT OF TRANSITIONS GOING ON IN THE HOUSE, NOT JUST IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH., AND I KNOW THAT IT'S A REALLY CRUCIAL, INTIMATE TIME WHERE YOU REALLY HAVE TO GET UP AND RUNNING FAST.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN IS BEING CRIPPLED BY OUR CURRENT PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I THINK THEY ARE MOVING FORWARD -- >> Bonnie: WELL, COMPLETELY DISABLED, WOULD YOU SAY?

>> Debra Carnahan: NO.

>> Bonnie: NOT HELD BACK, THEY ARE -- THEY ARE ALL FOR IT LIKE TRUMP JUST DOESN'T EXIST.

>> Debra Carnahan: BUT YES.

I THINK IT'S VERY INTERESTING AND HEARTENING THAT WE HAVE PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS, WHO ARE EXPERTS ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, AND AFFAIRS OF STATE THAT ARE STEPPING IN AND USING THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND THEIR EXPERTISE TO HELP THE BIDEN TRANSITION,, EVEN IF, YOU KNOW, THEY CANNOT DO IT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, GSA WON'T ALLOW THEM AT THIS POINT.

I THINK THAT I WANT TO REITERATE A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT EVERYBODY SAID.

YOU KNOW, JOE BIDEN REALLY LOVES THE POLITICS.

HE IS LIKE A BILL CLINTON, AND I HAVE KNOWN JOE AND JILL FOR OVER 30 YEARS.

AND THEY REALLY LIKE PEOPLE.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA AND MICHELLE DID NOT LIKE PEOPLE, BUT THEY WERE MORE PROCESS ORIENTED.

THEY WERE NOT THE SHAKE THE HANDS, THE STATE OF FOREVER, BE THREE HOURS LATE ON YOUR SCHEDULE.

THEY WERE VERY DIFFERENT PRESIDENT -- >> Bonnie: THEY WERE MORE SORT OF -- THEY WERE IVY LEAGUES AND VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN, FORMER VP BIDEN CAMPAIGNED ON THE FACT THAT HE DID NOT GO TO AN IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL.

>> Debra Carnahan: RIGHT.

EXACTLY, EXACTLY.

SO WE WILL SEE SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, BUT I ALSO THINK, TO GIVE THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION CREDIT, THERE WAS A LOT OF FORWARD THINKING, EMPHASIS ON DIVERSITY.

FOR ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES, PROBABLY, IN THE HISTORY OF OUR PRESIDENCY.

NOTHING JOE BIDEN WILL BUILD ON THAT.

NOTHING BECAUSE OF THAT, WERE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF DIVERSITY IN HIGH LEVELS POSITIONS, AND THAT'S WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

HIGH-LEVEL.

>> Bonnie: TALK TO ME, TALK TO ME ABOUT THE THREE MOST POWERFUL AND MOST COVETED CABINET SEATS, WHICH ARE THE TREASURY SECRETARY, DEFENSE SECRETARY, AND SECRETARY OF STATE.

WHO DO WE EXPECT TO SEE IN THOSE POSITIONS?

>> Debra Carnahan: G, BONNIE, I WOULD'VE THROWN IN ATTORNEY GENERAL ON THAT.

MAYBE THAT'S MY JUSTICE DEPARTMENT BACKGROUND.

>> Bonnie: IMPORTANT TOO, BUT GO AHEAD.

>> Debra Carnahan: NO.

I THINK REALLY AT THIS POINT SECRETARY OF STATE IS CRUCIAL TO REPAIR OUR REPUTATION AND WHO WE ARE AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE IN OFFICE THERE.

AND I HEARD EVERYBODY TALKING ABOUT SUSAN RICE AND THERE MAY BE A PROBLEM IN THE SENATE WITH THAT, THE SENATE CANNOT JUST KNOCK ON EVERY SINGLE ONE OF PRESIDENT TO BE BIDENS APPOINTEES.

THEY WILL HAVE TO PICK AND CHOOSE.

THEY WILL HAVE A HIGH TIME NOT CONFORMING SUSAN RICE.

>> Latifa Lyles: I WOULD ALSO ADD THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE -- THERE'S OPPORTUNITY FOR SOME ADDITIONAL HISTORY MAKING.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE POWERS, NOT ONLY IN THE CABINET, BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE MILITARY AND OTHERS, THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE IN THE JOINT CHIEFS, THERE ARE SO MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO HAVE WOMEN IN THOSE POSITIONS THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN IN THOSE POSITIONS BEFORE, UNHEARD-OF.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT, WE TALKED ABOUT STATE, WE TALKED ABOUT ATTORNEY GENERAL, BUT I DO -- THERE WILL BE SOME ADDITIONAL BRIGHT SPOTS AND SURPRISES AS WELL, THAT WILL COME IN SOME OF THOSE UNEXPECTED PLACES THAT ARE NOT TYPICALLY THOUGHT ABOUT IN THE BEGINNING STAGES HERE.

>> Debra Carnahan: I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU., JUST MAKE A STATEMENT HERE?

I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BEING BACK THE OFFICE OF WOMEN'S ISSUES AND OUTREACH TO THE WHITE HOUSE THAT WAS DESTROYED BY PRESIDENT BUSH, THAT WAS INITIATED BY THE CLINTONS.

WE NEED THAT OFFICE.

>> Bonnie: DIDN'T EXIST UNDER THE OBAMA'S AND THEN TRUMP TOOK IT OUT AGAIN?

>> Bonnie: YEAH.

SO UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THE COUNCIL ON WOMEN AND GIRLS WAS FORMED AS AN INTERAGENCY RESPONSE LOOKING AT POLICIES AND OUTREACH AND ENGAGEMENT ACROSS NOT ONLY CABINET LEVEL AGENCIES, BUT ACROSS GOVERNMENT.

AND THAT COUNSEL WAS HEADED BY SENIOR STAFF IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

VALERIE JARRETT WAS THE CHAIR OF THE COUNCIL ON WOMEN AND GIRLS.

AND IT TOOK A CROSSCUTTING APPROACH.

WE DEFINITELY KNOW THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE EVEN MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO TAKE THAT APPROACH, PLUS, AS YOU MENTIONED, THE OFFICE STRUCTURE THAT EXISTED BEFORE TO HAVE EVEN MORE SENIOR VOICES ON THOSE CRITICAL ISSUES, INCLUDING -- >> Bonnie: WHEN YOU SAY CROSSCUTTING, PLEASE, FOR THE AUDIENCE, EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN AND EXPLAIN HOW THAT WILL TRANSITION INTO CHANGED LAWS IN THESE COUNTRIES THAT AFFECT WOMEN OR GIRLS.

WE HAVE SEEN THE RECESSION, FOX, THIS RECESSION THAT WE ARE IN HAS DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED -- WOMEN FOUR TIMES AS MANY WOMEN ARE OUT OF THE WORKFORCE, MANY OF THEM FOREVER, POSSIBLY, BECAUSE OF WHAT'S GOING ON WITH COVID?

WHAT KIND OF LEGISLATION DO YOU THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WILL BE PUSHING TO TRY TO CHANGE THAT?

>> Latifa Lyles: WELL, AS YOU MENTIONED, BONNIE, WE ARE AT SUCH A CRITICAL TIME RIGHT NOW.

AMILIES ARE SUFFERING, CAREERS HAVE BEEN PUT ON HOLD.

WE HAVE A CRISIS OF CARE AND CAREGIVING, BOTH WITH YOUNG CHILDREN AND ALSO WITH OLDER RELATIVES AND OUR OWN PERSONAL CARE.

FOR SURE, THERE'S GOING TO BE A FOCUS IN THE EARLY DAYS OF HOW TO JUMPSTART AND RESTART AND MOVE FORWARD THE ECONOMY.

BUT ALSO, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO HAVE A STRONG ECONOMY WITH CAREGIVING, WHICH IS VERY MUCH AT THE CENTER RIGHT NOW?

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

HOW DO WE INVEST IN CHILDCARE AND IN OTHER CAREGIVING PROGRAMS THAT WE KNOW FAMILIES DESPERATELY NEED AND ALWAYS HAVE, BUT COVID HAS CERTAINLY HIGHLIGHTED THAT THE GAPS THAT WE HAVE IN THOSE AREAS AND AS IT RELATES TO THE WORKFORCE, ABSOLUTELY KNOW THAT THERE ARE MULTIPLE TOOLS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO HAVE AT HAND, NOT ONLY LEGISLATION, AS YOU POINT OUT, BONNIE, BUT THERE'S ALSO GOING TO BE EXECUTIVE ACTION, UNDOING SOME OF THE HARMS AND THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS PUT IN PLACE BY THE CURRENT PRESIDENT AND MOVING ON.

BUT THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENT'S OFFICE ON EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND OTHER COMMISSIONS AND POLICIES AND BUDGETS THAT CAN AFFECT NOT ONLY WHAT'S HAPPENING WITHIN THE CABINET LEVEL AGENCIES, BUT HOW THEY'RE FUNDED.

SO THERE'S THERE'S A, THERE'S A HOST OF TOOLS IN THE TOOLBOX.

IT'S NOT JUST LIMITED TO CONGRESS, ALTHOUGH CONGRESS IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THOSE TOOLS.

BUT HOW OUT OF THE GATE, WE'RE GOING TO BOTH FOCUS ON ECONOMIC AND THE BUDGET AND THE CONCERNS OF WORKING FAMILIES, AND THEN HOW WE CAN USE THE LEVERS OF THE PRESIDENT'S OFFICE, ACROSS GOVERNMENT, SO THAT COULD BE HHS, THERE COULD BE THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND WHO THOSE KEY FOLKS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, WORKING WITH THOSE AGENCIES ON POLICIES GOING TO BE VERY CRITICAL.

>> Bonnie: THIS HAS BEEN A BASEBALL BAT, PING-PONG BALL KIND OF THING GOING BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN ADMINISTRATIONS, BUT EVERY DEMOCRAT WHO COMES IN LIFTS THE GLOBAL GAG RULE, WHICH PREVENTS USAID FUNDS FROM GOING TO COUNTRIES IF -- AND IT'S MONEY THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE GOING TOWARDS EXPANDING THE REACH AND THE AVAILABILITY OF FAMILY-PLANNING AND IF THE COUNTRY IT ALLOWS ABORTIONS, THAT MONEY STOPS.

BUT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN DONE ON THE FIRST DAY IN OFFICE, OR AT LEAST OVER THE LAST FEW ADMINISTRATIONS.

ARE WE GOING TO SEE AT THIS TIME, DEBRA, ON BIDENS FIRST DAY, TO LIVE THE GLOBAL GAG RULE?

>> Debra Carnahan: I THINK ACTUALLY YOU WILL.

HE HAS HIS OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS, BUT, YOU KNOW, MEXICO CITY, YOU KNOW, DOCTRINE WAS A HORRIBLE DOCTRINE.

AS ALL THAT FIRSTHAND IN ETHIOPIA WHEN THEY SPENT 12 DAYS GOING AROUND ETHIOPIA ON WOMEN'S ISSUES AND HEALTH ISSUES.

IT WAS AN ATROCITY THAT YOU WOULD MAKE A WOMAN WALK 7 MILES TO GET BIRTH CONTROL FROM WHERE SHE WENT JUST TO GET AN OB/GYN EXAMINATION.

AND I KNOW PERSONALLY THAT JOE AND JILL THINK THAT THAT WAS HORRIBLE AND THAT WE SHOULD NOT TIE OUR PERSONAL OR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS TO ENABLING WOMEN TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR BODIES AND NOT HAVE UNWANTED PREGNANCIES AND HAVE HEALTHCARE AT THE SAME TIME.

>> Bonnie: YOUR THOUGHTS, RINA, ABOUT WHAT KIND OF LEGISLATION YOU WANT TO SEE THIS ADMINISTERED TO THE ADMINISTRATION PUSHING.

>> Rina Shah: I THINK WHILE I DO CARE A GREAT DEAL ABOUT WE AS A COUNTRY HAVE DONE AND AS AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE WE BEEN SO THROUGH THE PHILANTHROPIC, THE MOST PHILANTHROPIC NATION IN THE WORLD, I DO CARE ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF AMERICAN FAMILIES RIGHT NOW, SO MUCH IT'S ON MY MIND EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY BECAUSE MY FELLOW AMERICANS AND I ARE GOING WITH ANOTHER -- INTO THIS HOLIDAY SEASON AND INTO THE END OF THE YEAR WITHOUT ANOTHER CHECK FROM THE US GOVERNMENT.

I MEAN, WE ARE LIVING THE NIGHTMARE OF THE PANDEMIC, WOULD IT SENT TO THE LIVES OF PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE MARRIED TO FRONT-LINE WORKERS, WHO ARE -- FAMILIES ON THE FRONT LINES AND WE HAD TO SHOULDER, REALLY, THE BRUNT OF CAREGIVING ENTIRELY.

I MEAN, THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION ABOUT WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE, WHETHER SELF-EMPLOYED LIKE MYSELF, OR WORKING A 9-TO-5 THAT COULD BE DONE VIRTUALLY, OR YOU'RE IN A CATEGORY WHERE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO SHOW UP AT WORK AND MASK UP AND SAY A PRAYER AND, YOU KNOW, HOPE THERE IS ENOUGH PPE FOR YOU.

AND THESE ARE THE WOMEN WE OUGHT TO BE CARING ABOUT.

I HAVE FULL FAITH THE PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN AS WELL AS VP ELECT HARRIS WILL DO THE RIGHT THING ON DAY ONE.

THEY WILL RIGHT THIS WRONG.

THIS IS SO AWFUL OF THIS CONGRESS, AS WELL AS THIS IS MINISTRATION TO, TO FELLAS LIKE THIS, TO FEEL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, HAVE WE HAVE RECEIVED ONE CHECK IN THESE PEOPLE IN CONGRESS THINK WE CAN GO ON LIKE THIS IS UNCONSCIONABLE.

THIS IS NEGLIGENCE TO THE NTH DEGREE.

I JUST CANNOT BELIEVE IT.

LIKE I SAID, I'M A LIFELONG CONSERVATIVE, BUT THIS IS WHY WE PAY TAXPAYER DOLLARS, LITERALLY FOUR TIMES LIKE THIS, THIS ADMONITION SCREWED IT UP AND THEN YOU LEAVE US OUT HERE WITH ONE MEASLY CHECK ALL YEAR?

SOMETHING ABOUT THE TREASURY SECRETARY.

I WANT TO SEE A WOMAN IN THERE AND WANT TO SEE A BLACK WOMAN IN THERE, BECAUSE LET ME TELL YOU WHAT: THAT'S A POSITION THAT REALLY MATTERS AND THE NGUYEN, I'VE HAD IT WITH THAT GUY.

I'M SO READY TO SEE HIM GO.

SO SICK OF BLACK PEOPLE BEING APPOINTED TO HIDE ALL THE TIME, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT.

YOU TELL ME WHO DELIVERED THE SELECTION FOR BIDEN AND HARRIS.

BLACK PEOPLE.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

AND WE ARE VERY LITTLE TIME LEFT, BUT WE ARE GOING RIGHT NOW TO SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

>>> BRING BACK MANLY MEN: THAT WAS THE CONTROVERSIAL TWEET FROM CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR CANDACE OWENS.

OWENS WAS MOCKING BRITISH SINGER HARRY STYLES FOR WEARING A FALCON ON THE COVER OF VOGUE.

STYLES IS THE FIRST MAN TO GRACE THE COVER OF VOGUE SO LOW.

HIS REACTION TO OWENS AND OTHER CRITICISM IS THERE IS SO MUCH JOY TO BE HAD PLAYING WITH CLOTHES AND HE DIDN'T THINK TOO MUCH ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS.

ALL RIGHT.

SO CANDACE OWENS SAID THAT HAVING STYLES ON THE COVER OF VOGUE IN ADDRESS IS PART OF A PROGRESSIVES WANTING TO FEMINIZE MEN.

IS THAT, TIANA, I'M GOING TO COME TO YOU ON THIS QUESTION.

DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY, A, AND, D, IF A LOT OF PROGRESS AND WOMEN THINK THAT FEMINIZING MEN IS A WAY TO GET RID OF TOXIC MASCULINITY, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> Tiana Lowe: I MEAN, FOR STARTERS, CANDACE OWENS IS VERY GOOD AT WHAT SHE DOES.

SHE'S NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

SHE'S DONE A VERY TIGHT FANTASTIC JOB AT ELEVATING ISSUES THAT EVERYONE AGREES UPON.

YES, IT'S ABSURD FOR MEN TO BE WEARING A DRESS, NOT BECAUSE HE IDENTIFIES AS A WOMAN BUT JUST AS PURE POSTURING, AND SHE MANAGES TO TRIGGER THE LIBS INTO OVERPLAYING THEIR HAND, INSTEAD SAYING BUT WHY WOULD YOU ASSUME THAT WEARING ADDRESSES FEMINIZING, WHY WOULD YOU APPLY A GENDER STRUCK -- CONSTRUCT TWO DRESSES, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY ABSURD, BUT SHE'S TRENDING FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME AND YOU GUYS KEEP MAKING HER FAMOUS.

BUT WITH REGARDS TO WHATEVER POLITICAL AGENDA THERE IS ABOUT GENDER, I DON'T THINK IT'S SO PLANT.

QUITE FRANKLY, THE MOST SEXIST, RACIST, BIGOTED THING THIS COUNTRY IS DOING IS THE MOST SEXIST, RACIST, BIGOTED THING THIS COUNTRY IS DONE MY ENTIRE LIFE.

IT'S BEEN LOCKED DOWN.

IT IS FORCING WOMEN ENTER THE WORKPLACE TO DISTANCE LEARN THEIR CHILDREN, BECAUSE THE TEACHERS UNIONS DON'T WANT TO SHOW UP TO WORK JUST LIKE OUR FRONTLINE WORKERS HAVE BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST EIGHT AND NINE MONTHS.

AND SO DOESN'T VOTE COVER REALLY MATTER?

NOT QUITE.

HAVE I EVER CARED FOR HARRY STYLES' MUSIC?

NO.

WAS IT CLEARLY A GIMMICK TO GET EVERYONE TRENDING IN THE NEWS?

YEAH, EVERYONE WONDERFUL TO WORK, BOOM, ONE THEIR CULTURE WAR BECAUSE THEY CAN NOW IGNORE THE FACT THAT CONDE NAST HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY RACIST PLACE TO WORK AND HISTORICALLY A SEXIST PLACE TO WORK BECAUSE NOW THEY ARE WOKE IN THE SHOWED HAIRSTYLES THE HARRY STYLES IN ADDRESS AND CANDACE OWENS GOT TWITTER HEADLINES.

>> Bonnie: YOUR THOUGHTS, LATIFAH?> Latifa Lyles: YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE FEELINGS IN THE CULTURE SURROUNDING IT, LESS SO, AND THE THING THAT THIS IS GARNERED FOR HER, MORE SO, AND OTHERS ARE VOICING ISSUES AROUND THE CONCERN ABOUT THIS IS ABOUT THE THREAT.

I MEAN, LET'S BE REAL, THE CONCERN IS THE THREAT WHAT IS WHAT IS THIS IMAGE OF A MAN IN A DRESS THREATENING?

WHETHER IT'S ACCEPTABLE, WHETHER IT'S FASHIONABLE, WHETHER HE LOOKS GOOD OR NOT, IT'S, IT'S THE CONTRACT THAT'S BEING APPENDED.

AND IT SCARES PEOPLE TO THINK THAT MALE STRONGHOLD, WHICH WAS TEND TO, LIKE IN HER IN HER QUOTE, IS SOMEHOW A BREAKDOWN IN SOCIETY.

IF MEN ARE NOT IN CONTROL, IF MEN ARE NOT OVERLY MANLY, AS SHE PUT IT, IN HER WORDS, THEN WE'RE SLIPPING.

AND I SAY THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.

I THINK WE HAVE .ENOUGH TESTOSTERONE AND ENOUGH MANLINESS TO LAST US THREE AND FOUR AND FIVE LIFETIMES.

SO ANYTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO -- TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS AND BREAK IT DOWN AND TALK ABOUT WHY IT'S SO UPSETTING, THE BETTER.

>> Bonnie: DEBRA, YOUR THOUGHTS?

DO YOU AGREE WITH OWENS' THEORY THAT PROGRESSIVES WANT TO FEMINIZE MEN, THINKING THAT IT WILL GET RID OF TOXIC MASCULINITY?

IS THAT A WAY TO DO IT?

OR IS IT JUST SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE OUGHT TO REALLY IGNORE?

>> Debra Carnahan: YEAH, BONNIE.

IGNORE IT.

I'M TOO MUCH A STUDENT OF HISTORY.

AND THESE TYPES OF DISCUSSIONS, OUT OF IGNORANCE.

LOOK AT HISTORY, LOOK DRESS LOOK AT STRONG LEADERS WHO ARE MALAY, YOU KNOW, AND THEY ARE IN DRESSES, THEY ARE INTO NEXT.

YOU HAVE JESUS CHRIST WALKING AROUND, YOU KNOW, WITH BASICALLY A ROMAN GARB AND THAT GOES TO HIS KNEES AND IT'S IS CORRECT, IT'S A DRESS.

THIS IS DOG WHISTLING.

TO ME, IT'S DOG WHISTLES.

FASHION IS FASHION.

DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

WE SAW THIS IN THE '70s WHEN WOMEN STARTED WEARING PANTSUITS.

I REMEMBER GROWING UP IN ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA.

IF I WANTED TO WEAR PANTS TO SCHOOL, AND TO PUT THEM UNDERNEATH MY SKIRT.

WHEN I WENT TO MY PIANO LESSONS IN OLD TOWN ALEXANDRIA, MY PIANO TEACHER REQUIRED A SKIRT OVER MY PANTS.

WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

GET OVER IT.

IT'S DOG WHISTLING.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

VERY BRIEFLY, RINA, TWO SENTENCES.

YOUR THOUGHT, IS THIS ALL JUST A JACKED UP PUBLICITY PLAY BY VOLK BY HARRY STYLES, BY CANDACE OWENS, OR IS IT A REAL SOCIAL ISSUE?

>> Rina Shah: YOU KNOW, I THINK CANDACE OWENS, TO ME, REALLY -- HE SUCCESSFUL AT WHAT SHE DOES BECAUSE SHE TAKES A DIFFERENT TONE WITH THINGS, NOT THE TIME THAT I WOULD TAKE.

BUT I DO THINK THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE AFRAID OF WHAT A MAN IN ADDRESS SIGNALS TO THE VERY YOUNG CHILDREN AND I THINK TO ME THE CHILDREN THAT I'M TRYING TO RAISE, EVERYTHING IN MY IDEOLOGY, POLITICALLY, ESPECIALLY, IT BEGINS IN THE HOME FOR ME.

SO I CAN TEACH MY YOUNG CHILDREN, BOTH GIRLS, TO LOOK AT THAT SITE AND SAY THAT'S HIS CHOICE.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

THANK YOU ALL.

THIS WAS A FANTASTIC DISCRETION, MUCH APPRECIATED.

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