- [Joe] Coming up on this edition of "Impact."

Passengers can now bring guns onboard public buses in Missoula.

The policy change came after a gun rights group threatened a lawsuit.

- This wasn't a decision where our riders came to us with a clear request.

- The list of places where it's suitable and legally permissible to ban guns is very short and it does not stretch as far as buses.

- [Joe] We'll talk to those who use the service as we explore the implications for the rest of the state.

And with its new Wolf Management Plan, Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks aims to reduce livestock conflicts with the use of controversial population control methods.

We'll meet ranchers who found success by taking a different approach.

- I'm not gonna sit here and say I want every wolf dead.

It's not the way it's gonna be, so you might as well not think like that.

- [Joe] Those stories next on "Impact."

- [Narrator] Production of "Impact" is made possible with support from the Otto Bremer Trust, investing in people, places, and opportunities in our region.

Online at ottobremer.org.

The Greater Montana Foundation, encouraging communication on issues, trends, and values of importance to Montanans.

And viewers like you who are friends of Montana PBS.

Thank you.

- Welcome to "Impact."

Our continuing series on issues important to Montanans.

I'm Joe Lesar.

People boarding Missoula's public buses can now carry guns onboard.

The bus system changed its policy after the Montana Shooting Sports Association threatened a lawsuit.

As Montana PBS's Breanna McCabe reports the bus service made the change reluctantly, but the gun rights group says the city never had the right to ban firearms in the first place.

- [Breanna] Regulars on Missoula's Mountain Line bus system have come to expect routine in their rides, a consistent schedule, riding for free, rules like no smoking, eating, or drinking.

And until recently, no firearms.

- You shouldn't need a gun on the bus.

Who are you actually protecting yourself from?

- It's a right to have it on the bus, or walk down the street or in the mall.

- It seems pretty drastic and super unsafe.

- I think it's very reasonable to know that you can get to work or to your doctor's appointment, or downtown without having to worry that the person sitting next to you is packing.

- [Breanna] Olga Kreimer says, "The no weapons policy in place since the bus started in 1977 served its riders well."

- There's been zero indication that more weapons in public spaces are something that the public wants.

- [Breanna] But it turns out that decision isn't up to the bus service because in Montana, local governments are prohibited from regulating firearms.

- Their policy was a violation of the constitutional rights that the citizens have reserved to themselves from government interference, and that's just unacceptable.

- [Breanna] It's a case Missoula resident, Gary Marbut, has been making for years as president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association.

He wrote the book on Montana Gun Laws.

- Constitutional rights are not negotiable.

They're not constitutional suggestions that some petty bureaucrat can ignore whenever they want.

- [Breanna] Even though governments can restrict firearms in some public buildings and spaces, Marbut says, "Public transportation isn't one of them."

In 2015, he wrote a letter to Mountain Line to make this case.

- Saying, basically, hey, you guys are violating the law.

You need to knock it off.

They wrote back, they considered it and had their attorney write me a seven page letter saying, basically, go jump in a lake.

- [Breanna] That response didn't mention Marbut at all, but it did outline Mountain Line's reasons for keeping its no weapons policy in place, concluding that it would be enforcing the passenger code of conduct in its current form with no exceptions.

In the meantime, Marbut, and the Montana Shooting Sports Association continued gun rights advocacy efforts on a larger scale, successfully bringing several bills into law.

And in February 2023, Marbut wrote his final letter to Mountain Line saying, "In part, we are no longer willing to allow this violation of law and the constitutions to continue."

- [Gary] Good morning, Gary Marbut.

- [Breanna] All the while, Marbut was setting the stage for a lawsuit, moving a bill through the legislature to allow anyone who successfully sues a governmental entity to collect court costs and attorney fees.

- If this bill were passed and I go back to Mountain Line and say, now you're really illegal, and if we have to sue you, we will collect our attorney's fees.

I think it's likely they would change their policy to comport with Montana law rather than ignoring us and telling us to go jump off a log.

- Those in favor, vote aye.

- [Breanna] The bill passed.

So the Montana Shooting Sports Association prepared to file suit.

With the bill set to take effect October 1st, 2023, Mountain Line caught wind of the impending lawsuit in August and discussed its options with staff, its board and attorneys.

- The law is pretty clear about restricting local government's ability to regulate firearms, and since we are a government agency that applies to us.

- [Breanna] Ultimately, the board of directors decided to change the policy rather than risk funds intended to improve their busing infrastructure to pay off a lawsuit.

- Redirecting our efforts toward a lawsuit that we would not be super likely to win did not seem like a really good response.

- [Breanna] So the rewritten policy went live in October stating, "No unlawful weapons are allowed on Mountain Line vehicles or property."

- So essentially if somebody is allowed to possess a weapon, they can bring it onboard a bus.

- [Breanna] Mountain Line placed new decals on the entrance to every bus, and once the new policy took effect, Kreimer started getting phone calls.

- We've heard from people who are really angry.

We've heard from people who are scared.

We've heard from people who are just outright choosing not to use the bus because of this.

- [Breanna] Kreimer says it was important to communicate why Mountain Line made the change.

- This was a choice that was out of our hands.

This wasn't a decision where our riders came to us with a clear request that we granted.

This was a really a targeted special interest that had a very concrete goal and we were forced to accommodate that.

- You can go throughout the whole world, but you can't jump on a bus because you got a gun, or you can't go to the mall or you can't go.

Come on, man, you know.

Do I want somebody to jump on the bus with a machine gun?

Probably not.

- [Breanna] Even though Mountain Line can't ban passengers from bringing guns onboard, operator's procedures instruct them to call a supervisor if a passenger's conduct crosses the line.

- Any kind of threatening behavior, anything that is meant to intimidate or harass someone, any brandished weapons, anything like that is still completely prohibited by our code of conduct.

- [Breanna] The policy doesn't clarify whether passengers can handle their firearms onboard, but in Montana, both open and concealed carry are legal.

- As an officer, I prefer to see open carry because I know what I see and I know what's there.

Concealed, I don't know what's there, and I have to assume every time that there is a weapon.

- [Breanna] But there's no physical checklist for what counts as a legal weapon.

The distinction comes down to a person's record.

In Montana, there's no training required to carry a firearm, but Missoula Police Officer, Whitney Bennett, encourages gun owners to educate themselves.

- Yes, you might have that firearm for your safety, but if you don't know how to properly use it, then you're risking the safety of other individuals.

- [Breanna] Under their employee agreement Mountain Line's operators are not allowed to carry weapons of any kind.

Mountain Line did not allow operators to be interviewed for this story, but a former operator says, "They should be allowed tools to defend themselves."

- There were a few times where I thought what could happen next?

Kind of thing, like very scary.

Like, is this passenger going to freak out and pull out a knife and come at me?

Type of thing where I might've felt safer with a firearm.

- [Breanna] Austin Norman, who's also a member of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, supports the passenger's constitutional right to carry and he says, "It shouldn't have taken Mountain Line so long to recognize it."

- I think it's too bad that you have to do things like lawsuits, or even a threat of a lawsuit to get a public entity to do what it probably should be doing to begin with.

- Until the threat of a lawsuit the benefits of sticking to a policy that we had had for decades that we stood behind and that we believed was in the best interests of the entire community, really, were greater than the risks of sticking to it.

- [Breanna] In Billings, the city owned MET Transit has operated under a policy that's less explicit than Mountain Lines.

The wording is more of a request saying, "Passengers should refrain from possessing weapons."

- We don't say it's prohibited.

We just ask that you don't.

We're not telling you you can't do it.

We just appreciate if you didn't.

- [Breanna] MET Transit Manager, Rusty Logan, says firearms have never been an issue on Billings' buses and that the policy is meant to empower operators.

- There's always flexibility in the policies.

It's open to interpretation, and it does lend a little bit of, I guess, ambiguity to it for the public, but it's also purposefully ambiguous to give the operators the flexibility that they need in order to execute that service daily.

- [Breanna] As city employees, MET Transit operators can carry concealed weapons with a permit.

Logan says differing rules across the state have spurred passionate conversations at the Montana Transit Authority where he serves as president.

- I can understand both sides of the argument.

On the transit side, we've got an individual who is operating a vehicle that can be upwards of 30 or 40,000 pounds that's already trying to pay attention to passengers that are onboard the vehicle.

They're trying to pay attention to people that are standing on the street trying to catch the bus.

They also have to pay attention to individuals that are walking, that are biking.

There's traffic around them.

There's weather that's going on.

There's a lot going on.

So adding in another potential source of distraction for them is obviously something we don't really want, but it's not necessarily something that also isn't reasonable, I guess, is the way that we look at it, because people do have the right to execute their constitutionally protected rights in that regard.

Personally, I am a firearm owner.

I'm a hunter, I'm a sportsman and so forth.

So I can understand that if I'm utilizing transit on a daily basis for my activities of daily life, I may want to take my pistol and go to the shooting range.

- [Breanna] Bozeman's Streamline Bus service, which the nonprofit HRDC operates is holding out on allowing weapons.

Its rules prohibit passengers from firearms or weapons of any kind.

And in a statement to Montana PBS, HRDC says, "HRDC's policy is that weapons are not allowed on HRDC vehicles including transit, transfer stations, or HRDC properties.

HRDC is aware of the situation in Missoula, and we are looking into how this affects HRDC."

But Marbut says, "The bus service receives federal funding and therefore is required to recognize the constitutional right to carry."

- There's a clear legal pathway in Bozeman, even though the structure is a little more complex.

- [Breanna] He says, "The Montana Shooting Sports Association has no immediate plans to approach Streamline, but eventually will."

And beyond Bozeman, transit systems across the state operate under policies as varied as the communities that they serve.

- We had a really unambiguous policy, and so in that way it was kind of clear that we prohibited weapons.

Ultimately, it's a question of what's best, safest for the community rather than any one individual community member's feelings about that.

- Well, first of all, passenger safety is not my responsibility.

My interest is in constitutional rights, and I think the ability of people to exercise their constitutional rights has definitely improved since Mountain Line has backed off on this gun ban policy.

- [Breanna] Even though Mountain Line's firearms policy has changed, Kreimer says, "The passenger experience is still the same."

- [Kreimer] The goal is always to serve the public and to provide transportation as effectively and efficiently and consistently as we can.

- [Breanna] For "Impact" I'm Breanna McCabe.

- Right now, the Federal Transit Administration defers weapons regulations to each jurisdiction, but in December, FTA launched a nationwide public transportation safety risk assessment in response to a spike in assaults on public transit operators.

The results of this study would inform any federal policy changes.

Well, moving on to our next story.

Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks is currently in the process of updating its Wolf Management Plan.

The proposed plan includes controversial methods to control the wolf population with the goal of reducing conflicts with livestock.

Montana PBS's, AJ Williams, spoke with ranchers who aren't waiting on a new plan to take a different approach in protecting their livelihood.

(Kenny whistles) - [Kenny] Come dogs.

- [AJ] Kenny Holland calls his dogs in from a day of work guarding his livestock.

- We have a family ranch, been here three generations.

We are a cow-calf operation.

- [AJ] Their ranch is located outside of Dillon in a region known as the High Divide between Idaho and Montana, which is a major corridor for carnivores.

Last year, the Hollands lost 60 calves from their herd of 500, many of which they believe were due to wolves.

Their livelihood was being threatened and the Hollands knew they needed to send a message to the predators.

Hunting wolves is legal in Montana, but Holland jokes that he's not a great shot, and mostly he wanted a longer lasting solution, which is why he looked to other methods.

- I'm not gonna sit here and say, I want every wolf dead.

It's not the way it's gonna be, so you might as well not think like that.

- This is a very polarized issue and people are very passionate on all ends.

- [AJ] Wolf management in Montana often brings extreme views.

Samantha Fino is the new Wolf Management Plan's main author and says, "A variety of social and political perspectives are speaking up on the complicated topic."

- There are people who want to save every wolf who do not want to hunt or trap, or have a harvest season for wolves, but there is also that constituency group that does wanna participate in that recreational opportunity that understands balance of a wolf population that allows for prey species and prey herds to thrive on the landscape as well.

- [AJ] Fino explains that according to the data collected by FWP, the state's wolf population has recovered significantly since the last management plan was approved over 20 years ago.

FWP'S new management plan is intent on managing this new reality with additional harvest methods that many find controversial.

FWP assesses that there are roughly 1,000 to 1,100 wolves in Montana, which is over the minimum goal of 450 or 15 breeding pairs.

The population also exceeds the U.S.

Fish and Wildlife Services minimum of 150.

More wolves across the state without adjusted management methods could mean more conflict and more livestock loss for ranchers in wolf populated areas like the Hollands.

- There are livestock producers who have to deal with on a daily basis their livelihoods being threatened in regards to how they make their money.

- [AJ] Wolf management has been a decades long controversy in Montana.

Wolves spent many years on the endangered species list, but they've made a successful comeback.

and were delisted in 2011.

Currently, Montana manages its own population in conversation with neighboring states, and will aim to keep the population count high enough to avoid federal intervention.

The choice is before ranchers facing wolf issues to go down either the lethal or non-lethal route.

If they're going to take a non-lethal approach that leaves more living wolves to be managed by the state.

- Lethal removal has its place in particular situations.

It can resolve a conflict short term, but it can't be the only solution to prevent conflicts going in the long run.

And so conflict prevention really needs to go hand in hand with wolf management if we're gonna coexist with these animals for the long term.

- [AJ] The Hollands got their four Great Pyrenees a year and a half ago.

They serve as livestock guardian dogs, which is a method of protecting the herd that has been used by many cultures across thousands of years.

They first heard about the opportunity through meeting Johnston who works for the organization, People and Carnivores.

They're committed to proactively addressing human and livestock predator conflicts in Montana.

The tools they offer serve as deterrence to the predators and often have longer lasting effects than lethal force.

They range from affordable to thousands of dollars depending on the type of intervention needed.

- We do provide financial cost share assistance, whether it's implementing tools like livestock guardian dogs, or electric fencing, stuff like that.

The amount of money that they're spending to prevent it is just money that they would've potentially lost if they had conflicts or started to lose livestock.

You can tell every once in a while they will get a whiff of something and they'll key in into a particular direction and be prepared they might just leave.

- If it wouldn't have been for Kim and the People from Carnivores stepping up and saying, "We'll pay for X amount a dog, and help you get reimbursed through a program for the dog food."

Now it made our dogs look more, okay, we can take this chance, instead of just throwing all the dang money out there and then being like, told you it wouldn't work.

My idea is I have these dogs to protect my livestock.

They're not made to fight.

I mean, they will fight.

Between them running around and tinkling here and tinkling there and doing their thing here and there that is supposed to keep the wolves away.

- [AJ] According to Montana FWP, there's been a decrease in livestock loss from the start of wolf hunting season in Montana.

In 2022, Wildlife Services confirmed that wolves killed 103 livestock, but Johnston says, "They tend to be under-reported due to limitations with the process."

She says that, "As wolves continue to populate the landscape, there's still a gap of information in reaching landowners in conflict ripe areas."

For example, Johnston explains that different types of management are needed to respond to wolf behavior depending on the season.

In calving season, the Hollands could also put up electric fencing.

or turbo fladry, which makes it less likely that wolves would approach the herd.

- So this is what we call turbo fladry.

So basically, it's just this inner sparsed flagging suspended from an electric wire.

So like I mentioned earlier, it takes advantage of wolves neophobic behavior, or essentially just that fear of novel stimulus in their environment.

So this is a tool, something that they're not used to seeing in the natural environment.

So it can help deter them short term from areas that might bring them into conflict.

No tool is gonna be 100% effective, but it's all about, again, how you use those tools and you can combine 'em or use 'em in different ways to improve their overall effectiveness.

- [AJ] People and Carnivores is one of the groups that partner with FWP to help with conflict mitigation, but Fino says, "Managing the species at the state level means managing the interests of all Montanans and specifically recreationalists like hunters and trappers."

- FWP, it is up to us, it is our responsibility to provide those opportunities for those interested if the populations are robust enough to sustain that.

- [AJ] Montanans hunting the species has been a longstanding issue and the legislature has changed those possibilities with increasing the avenues of harvest.

- When FWP provides their proposals and their recommendations for the Wildlife Commission, we do consider what is fair, what is ethical, and what is humane, and they may pass those.

That may cross that line in some people's perspectives and opinion.

- [AJ] Fino says that, "The legislative changes in acceptable avenues to harvest wolves using bait, snares, and hunting at night on private land were in part to increase success rates for hunters and trappers."

- It's a pretty low recreational participation.

There's not many that hunt and trap wolves and it is a very difficult endeavor.

Wolves are elusive, they're very smart.

There's only a few individuals each harvest season that harvest more than one wolf.

- [AJ] The Montana FWP Commission was effective as wolves killed by trapping surpassed deaths by hunting for the first time in 2022, which is in line with the changes made.

Together, there were a total of 258 wolves harvested, roughly a quarter of the estimated population of approximately 1,000 to 1,100.

The updated legal harvest numbers and methods were based on data compiled by FWP's biologists and interpreted by specialists.

- This number may change if monitoring methods change in the future.

- [AJ] But public mistrust around wolf management runs deep.

In a recent listening session FWP held for feedback on the plan in Missoula, groups from varying perspectives didn't trust the data provided.

- Are you saying with this new plan that you're going be more transparent than in the past?

- [AJ] And brought forth alternative studies and their own observations.

- [Audience member] There was a severe overestimation bias of 150% that proliferated through iPOM's submodel structure and resulted in estimated wolf abundance two and a half times larger than true abundance.

- Region one has about 3,000, 4,000 elk.

They could handle, they could actually probably support 20,000 elk.

And I go places where I used to elk hunt and see elk when I was in college, I see nothing but wolf tracks.

- So here we have several outputs from iPOM from 2022.

- [AJ] Montana FWP uses an integrated patch occupancy model known as iPOM to estimate the state's wolf population.

They used years of data to set harvest quota and recommendations in the new management plan.

- There's a lot of misunderstanding of iPOM.

- [AJ] Stakeholders on all sides have criticized the model for reporting population numbers they believe to be too high, which would mean increased harvest quota, or too low, which means that the harvest numbers aren't high enough.

- We acknowledge that there's uncertainty that's built into the entire model and we acknowledge that, but this is a way that we can have the best information available to us to make informed management decisions, and to bring that forward as we're making our recommendations.

- [AJ] The comment period is closed and a new management plan is imminent.

All stakeholders will be affected by the changes as they each approach management with a different perspective on what wolf interactions bring to their lives.

Back in the High Divide, Holland takes care of the dogs as they put in a hard day's work looking after his herd.

- [Kenny] He's kind of a hog.

- [AJ] It's only been a year and a half into having livestock guardian dogs, but the Hollands have already seen a big difference in loss.

They plan on growing to a pack of six to eight dogs eventually, because so long as there are wolves to manage, they'll keep coming through their valley.

- I wanna make myself clear, they're not a cure-all.

I'm not gonna save every calf, I get that.

I mean, but if I only lose three to wolves, or a bear, four, compared to 20, then that's a win.

The wolves will be back.

And so I think it's gonna be a constant educational process for the ranchers to help the public and each other understand what we're all trying to gain in this process.

- [AJ] For "Impact" I'm AJ Williams.

- Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks is currently finalizing the Wolf Conservation and Management Plan, which they anticipate releasing in March.

Well, that's it for our program, but next time on the show.

Montana's recent cold snap has put renewable energy sources in the political crosshairs.

It's also prompted NorthWestern Energy to tout the need for more fossil fuels.

We'll ask the utility's CEO how that squares with his promise to cut the company's net carbon emissions to zero by 2050.

- We have to balance three things, reliability, affordability, and sustainability.

- We'll unpack the praise and criticism of their net zero vision against the backdrop of Montana's changing climate.

Well, for all of us here at Montana PBS, I'm Joe Lesar, and we thank you for joining us.

(soft music) - [Narrator] Production of "Impact" is made possible with support from the Otto Bremer Trust, investing in people, places, and opportunities in our region.

Online at ottobremer.org.

The Greater Montana Foundation, encouraging communication on issues, trends, and values of importance to Montanans, and viewers like you who are friends of Montana PBS.

Thank you.

(bright music)